In this episode of the Life Itself Podcast from the Ordinary People series, Life Itself Co-Founder Sylvie Barbier is joined by Jamie Bristow a leading expert on inner development and contemplative practices in public life. Jamie talks about his journey from his troubling teenage years to teaching mindfulness to politicians. Jamie Bristow opens up about his troubling teenage years led by the dislocation and adaption of new cultures while their family moved between the UK and the USA. Exploring what led him to move away from his advertising career to being a mindfulness practitioner and teacher. Jamie’s life story highlights the importance of meditation, faith, and resilience in leading a mindful life. 

About Jamie Bristow

Jamie Bristow is a leading expert on inner development and contemplative practices in public life. For eight years, he was Director of the Mindfulness Initiative and clerk to the UK’s All-Party Parliamentary Group on Mindfulness. In 2023, he joined the Inner Development Goals team to lead on public narrative & policy development. Jamie was formerly Business Development Director for Headspace and has a background in psychology, climate change campaign communications and advertising. A teacher of insight meditation, his mentors have included Rob Burbea, Stephen Batchelor and Christina Feldman. 

Learn more about Jamie Bristow and his work here

About Sylvie Barbier

Sylvie Barbier is a French-Taiwanese performance artist, entrepreneur and educator. She co-founded Life Itself to build a wiser future through culture, space and community.

The Once Upon a Time podcast series, shatters the myth that extra-ordinary lives are reserved for a select few. Join us as we dive deep into the lives of seemingly ordinary people who are walking extra-ordinary paths, uncovering their motivations, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey.

Transcript

Please note this transcript is unedited

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

path, meditation, people, mindfulness, faith, practice, spiritual, feel, years, ways, scientific materialist, moments, world, bit, happy, sangha, culture, lost, mindfulness training, relationship

SPEAKERS

Sylvie Barbier, Jamie Bristow

Sylvie Barbier  00:00

Good morning. My name is Sylvie Barbie. And today I will be hosting Jamie Bristow on our series called Once upon a time. And so Jamie, I'm really happy to have you today. And I'd love to first ask you a kind of very complex question and feel free to take it wherever you want, which is who are you?

Jamie Bristow 00:21

Wow. Well, it's lovely to be here, Sylvie and yeah, well what a pleasure to perhaps come at that question in a fresh way I'll try and avoid you know, the practice lines and yes, start a new Who am I I am a mystic, a seeker a change agent. And those things are all interlinked. For me. I am a husband, an increasingly active member of my local community, trying to trying to build roots and relationships on my street and in my neighborhood. I am you know, brother, a son. I'm a writer. And that's been interesting recently deciding that I'm that I'm maybe primarily am a writer, rather than how I spend most of my career spent most of my career doing. And a rock climber, runner, a yogi, and meditation teacher, you guys. scattergun?

Sylvie Barbier  02:04

Yes. Human being as human beings have multitude as a facet and dimension to become whole. And I have to understand a little bit like, some people don't know who you are or what you're up to. And I love to kind of let them understand a little bit. What are you up to in your life? What are what is really your calling that you get to fulfill on with your action currently, that might be in your career, but also related to your spirituality? Yeah, thank you.

Jamie Bristow 02:42

Well, the professional story that I am bit more used to reeling off starts. In my early career in advertising, starting to I, I meditated, I started picking up the practice of meditation and mindfulness in order to be better at that job in order to work longer hours to make better commercials for SUVs and various other brands that I was working on. And then I got that benefit during me and I could, I had better concentration powers, and I could work longer. But then I also got more than I bargained for. And I discovered more things about myself, you know, I explored my heart and mind and discovered that what I found showed me the life I was leading wasn't right, for me or for the world. And I ended up in a climate change campaign, quitting, quitting my job and initially working for free. And it was it was in that period that I, well, first of all got a bit disillusioned with climate change campaign communications, and the effect that they were having. Because still, now, actually, very little has changed. And I looked at myself, and I thought, why did I suddenly going from go from working, you know, making commercials for for Nissen, and, you know, thinking that was, that was just totally fine. Use of my time to caring about convincing people to buy fewer SUVs because of the state of things. And it was the same information landing differently because my heart and mind had transformed had changed. And that core insight that there was an inner dimension to sustainability issues, and, and climate action. That's been my sort of guiding, Insight guiding principle for the last 12 years or so. I initially thought, well, everyone just has to meditate more. And so I worked for headspace for a bit because I thought that that was like rebranding meditation. And helping get it to places where it hadn't been considered. And then through that got involved in politics, sorry, the application of mindfulness training in politics and public policy. So I was invited to support some politicians to look at how mindfulness can be better applied in schools, hospitals, prisons, police forces, that kind of thing. Because many of them had actually been practicing mindfulness by that point for a year or so, and became interested in how they could share it in the same way that I went to headspace to try and share it. They were interested in public policy. And I'm basically I've been doing that for the last 10 years. So you know, both in Britain and in the British Parliament, where there's been an all party parliamentary group on mindfulness since 2014. And then around the world, because many politicians and policymakers from all kinds of countries saw what we're doing in the UK, and they said, like, can you come and talk to us about how we might do something similar here. And so it's been a great pleasure to yeah, we've helped to establish mindfulness training in the French Parliament, and Dutch parliament and Canadian Sri Lankan, various,

Sylvie Barbier  06:20

what have been your finding currently, in this journey,

Jamie Bristow 06:27

we're actually just about to come up to where we just past 10 years of mindfulness in the British Parliament, and we've done we've worked with some academics to do some semi structured interviews, like, you know, like rigorous interviews and the publishing the results in academic papers, and also creating a policy report, which will be out in September of this year. And what we've what we've found in politicians own words, is that they have found personal performance benefit. They found benefit to their ability to do public speaking, and, and their own individual resilience has been improved. So that's the all the category of kind of individual benefit. But then they also report interpersonal benefits, so that their relationships with with their family and friends, but particularly, colleagues and adversaries, even, you know, in Parliament, are different. So they have different sorts of relationships, can bring more of themselves into the political space, because of the training that they've received, and because of the kind of the culture of these sort of like meditation groups, essentially that had been running. And, and then finally, there's, you know, some of them talk about the potential and the kind of green shoots of culture shift of not just individual interpersonal relationships changing, but in some way, the kind of culture within within parliament, at least amongst those who have been on a mindfulness course, and now 300 MPs, and members of the House of Lords have had some mindfulness training. So that's still a minority, but it's, you know, it's shifting. So that's been really interesting. And, and what I'm most known for, I guess, more recently, is going beyond the kind of applications of mindfulness in schools and hospitals, etc, where the evidence is strongest, but But writing on the subject of how mindfulness and compassion as you know, natural human capacities could be foundational to a more flourishing society, and more skillful responses to our sustainability crises. So I've recently published a report with a sustainability sciences professor Christine Van Maslow called reconnection meeting the climate crisis inside out. So that one sort of threading together the evidence base for bigger that for the application of contemplative practices to bigger than self concerns, through into it into a narrative that makes sense of many people's intuition, that somehow actually, we need to develop ourselves to be more equal to the challenges of the times we now face.

Sylvie Barbier  09:16

What I love about your story is that you first use meditation as a tool to perform better to come out compete maybe or perform better in the current system. But and then in a way might have hijacked you and you into a whole different path. But inside that, I also hear that in a way, you have to also meet people where they are at right and you know where we'd like them to be. Because who knows maybe if you were given meditation for spiritual transformative experience, you might have not taken that. But for for where you were At you took you took it. And that's and it's also Life is full of surprise, you don't know who's gonna switch and why they're gonna switch. And in a way I'd love to understand. Because in a sense, I hear that maybe a seed was planted at that moment in your life and it bloomed and awaken you to have a different understanding of your worldview. And I'd love to understand maybe a little bit more your your background, both and maybe what had you had be able to, like understand and being in touch with meditation help you to do that switch. But was there maybe also other things in your, in your childhood in your path that might have created a fertile soil for that seed to be able to actually grow when it got planted? So yeah, to understand a little bit, like, for example, like, what was your family value system? You know, what was your social economical environment in which you grew up?

Jamie Bristow 11:12

Yeah, that's, that's an interesting one. I mean, we, I grew up in pretty comfortable material circumstances. But a kindness kind of spiritual poverty in another sense. On the one hand, you know, my dad was a kind of amateur armchair philosopher. And so his our relationship was really formative for me, because he would get me into sort of various thought experiments, you know, like, how do you know that you're not actually just a brain in a jar. And that and that you're kind of your vision or your, your, your senses are actually just signals fed fed into this brain by some kind of computer like, and to an 1111 year old, or however, however old they would have been at that time. You know, it kind of like, blows over and what you what you think is going going on here, as you're inquiring Thank God, I how do I know that's not the case? You know? And so that was that was really helpful, but it was all very much within what I'd say as a kind of scientific materialist. Even somewhat nihilists frame. Yes. And actually, where I've gone to more recently, and I think, you know, I think when you said like, who are you? I think what was it the first word that I said that I'm a mystic, or actually a post Buddhist mystic, I sometimes describe myself as like, I'm very much dedicated to Buddhist practice and continuing that path. But but also have a kind of perhaps broader ontology cosmology. Openness to what it is, it's going on here, like it doesn't really fit within, within the Buddhist sort of religious dogma. And so and so yeah, I both had this kind of inquiring and curious, philosophical background, but one that was sort of kind of flat, in a kind of soul spiritual sense. It was the flattened world of the scientific materialist. Yes.

Sylvie Barbier  13:40

Well, I hear that it was flat and there was an essence of so maybe in the scientific materialist worldview that had maybe the dimension of being an inquiry about life. Yeah. That was maybe one positive element of it, that when when that seed came in, allow it to continue in that inquiry that develop into the spiritual realm.

Jamie Bristow 14:06

Yes, that's that's well said. Yes. Exactly. And and in a way yeah, that that that inquiry led me led me to the place which kind of eight it's eight the very foundational assumptions of its own worldview. Yeah. And the, the other the other thing that came to mind was was a couple of different things in my sort of adolescence. I grew up in California for a few years when I was a kid sort of eight to 11. Nish. And when I was over there, my dad picked up have a short meditation tape called The Five Minute supercharger. And he brought it back from California and I think he gave it to me when I was sort of fifth Dino So, and I think I must have played it only a couple of times. So it's not exactly, you know, the root of my meditation practice. But at least it made me open to the possibility of closing my eyes, intending to do something, and following some guidance. And actually, my inner landscape being quite significantly shifted in a relatively short spirit pet space of time. So by the time I went to university, and there was like a meditation society, I joined up in my first year, that was when, you know, my path really started. But I was already open to the possibility that this could be helpful, because of that, like just five minute experience. And it was like, it was so different from the kind of ethos behind mindfulness, it was. So New Age, California, in tone, you know, it's like you are sitting next to a stream, and it's filling up this lake and this lake is your energies and, and so it was a visualization, basically, about how this water was flowing into your, your, your lifeforce or something.

Sylvie Barbier  16:10

So that was, Can I asked you, you say you're your brother, you have siblings? And what is very interesting in siblings, when one half siblings is you grew up in the same family, and then the same of you often in the same social economical environment. But yet there's some time huge variation. And I'd love to understand maybe. Why do you think that you? First I don't know if your siblings have taken similar path to you? And if it's not the case, then why do you think you've taken this path? And maybe not them?

Jamie Bristow 16:48

Oh, a lovely question. Yeah. I said, lovely question. Yeah, though, of course, there are similarities. And there are differences is, and I think, this being a seeker, which itself is a bit of a kind of new age, California kind of phrase, but, but I think it kind of does give a, a sense of an overall orientation or disposition towards finding something beyond what we have here. Going deeper, that sense of inquiry into the sort of spiritual or ontological realm. And my brother doesn't have that so much. You know, he has dabbled with things like meditation. And one of the reasons is, you know, I was quite an unhappy teenager, like, I've had quite a lot to overcome. In the way, maybe he has, he has less, so that's one part of it. So I was actually very happy kid until, until I went to California. And actually, I was on track to really, you know, recover the kind of dislocation of moving to a different culture and a different continent. When we came straight back again, you know, it came back, you know, after a little bit less than three years, I think. And, and my reentry into the, into British culture, British school culture was really tough. And it was that kind of dislocation and, and the kind of some social trauma, as it were the kind of bumpy landing back in the UK, which then spun off to other forms of difficulty. That may be actually pretty unhappy and depressed. Yeah, in my teenage years. And at one point, I realized actually, people didn't like me very much. Like I was, I had had friends, I hadn't enough friends to ask, why don't people like me, you know, and good friends enough for them to tell me and try and help. But there was a sudden realization that I'm unhappy, I'm not making anybody else happy here either. Like, like, you know, something I'm doing is maladaptive. And that was really the path, the beginning of the path and I come to think of it, of intuitive development, even before meditation was the main articulation of that and actually even for the advertising bit of the story, when I realized I wanted to be a different person. And initially I wanted to be okay. And I wanted to be liked enough to be you know, some somewhat averagely or normal amount of liked and happy and I was like, well, I need some wisdom and and I kind of hoovered up for what I could find. But again, I like, like I said, a little bit rudderless didn't have the spiritual leaders or spiritual tradition. And there's that spiritual poverty I kind of mentioned, and actually was very, very functional. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, it was kind of actually in poetry that I that I could most find little nuggets of wisdom. So I sort of read lots of poetry, and particularly that poem, those perch poets that were trying to kind of like, pass on some kind of insight or knowledge about how to how to navigate this, this thing called life. And I had, I think I got, you know, within a few years, to a point where I was okay, and I was liked. And in fact, I was sort of pathologically trying, trying to be liked for some years. And it wasn't until I was elected president of my students union at university and I had like, 1000s of people voting for me to know that I can I kind of like slayed that demon and put that to rest. I was like, you know, I can just, I can not try, we try and quiet so hard now. Because until that point, yeah, I was probably insufferable. And, anyway, I kind of think I just over overshot the mark at that point, you've just established routines, habits processes, to try and be a better person to try and be happy to try and be okay. And I reached that point, perhaps, that you know, most people are muddling along, but happy enough, and then that I had already established those habits and processes and so it just sort of kept on going. Drawing in more and more. But wisdom, pros, you know, have like practices and ways of seeing what, what real flourishing could be and, and the, you know, the Buddhist path, the, the path of contemplative practice and development more broadly is so deep, like it keeps on going and keeps on going, there is no end the levels of freedom, wander you know, deep resource skillfulness bliss that are possible when you do keep on going quite. Yeah, I mean, it's just not recognized by, by science or, or the vast majority of people.

Sylvie Barbier  22:34

And thank you so much for sharing about maybe this difficult moment, in your teenage years and childhood, because there's this thing of like, no mud, no Lotus. And that sometimes when we experience suffering, we don't see receive them with perceive them that actually they, these rocks can become diamonds. But it in my understanding, in my perception, often people who have gone through a transformative path and an evolution, there was also a great moment of having to encounter great suffering. And what it sounds very interesting is that there was suffering and there was an his teenage period already in an MMA like, that you could change. Like, that's kind of really quite unique, because a lot of people don't think that they can change. People think like, that's just the way I am, you know, oh, if I'm this like, person that people don't like, no way I can change and this mindset of like, you know, I'm going to change myself to to be likable. Like, it's, it's quite particular. And I think there's maybe something very key to that idea. Because if we believe that we're fixed and we can't change, then, you know, there's no hope there's no possibility, but if you hold in you the possibility that you can transform or you can, then that already opens something up. Yes. And, I mean, I also think like, was there you know, that you Was there any moments maybe in your spiritual path when you were already maybe deeper into your spiritual path where you encounter like some people name and a dark night of the soul or like some really difficulty or doubt in regards to your spirituality, or faith, and what's maybe your journey through that? Yeah,

Jamie Bristow 24:54

there I absolutely had a dark night of the soul period. and this was when I had already woken up to some extent I had no longer I no longer had the the vision of being an advertising agency CEO is my main life aspiration, you know, and I was starting to come away from that path and find a new arm. And I still had a lot of the, what we call in Buddhism, like the old refuges, the refuges of St. numbing through alcohol, you know, the, the old ways of making ourselves feel okay with the difficulty. And I hadn't yet found my new refuges, the refuge of awareness of turning towards the difficult with a bright mind and an open heart. And part of me still wanted to cleave to the old, the old ways. And that's often one of the elements or characteristics of a Dark Knight, like, you know, a little bit like where we are in society. And as a whole, at the moment, if you can always call us in the dark night of the soul socially, where the old ways are no longer serving us, but the new world has not yet been born with new new new refuges. And also, there is actually a more technical, dark night of the soul when it comes to meditation. Like there are ways in which your mind can change, and you can see yourself as less solid and fixed and separate.

Jamie Bristow 27:08

And the initial reaction to that can be actually kind of sense of disgust or dis ease, you're feeling very lost, it's like, wow, I'm not what I thought I was.

Jamie Bristow 27:20

It's a much it's a much looser and more like an eddy inner stream, you know, a much looser kind of like, phenomena, then they're kind of like the fixed and separateness that we, that we're sort of born in, into seeing. And that is often in the Buddhist inner kind of meditative tradition has talked and talked about a dark night of the soul. And I had that really, really big time as well. And there was a period where I was a bit lost. And eventually, I realized the only way out of it was hitting the accelerator. In my practice, there was no way back to see myself the way I used to head, I'd seem too much, you know, it was through insight and through through meditation practice, that is, I have seen things that cannot be unseen. And things that therefore started to disassemble or not fabricate in the same way. And I couldn't go back to, like I say, the, the, the old sources of, of soccer or refuge because I saw they actually created more suffering. And then they didn't give me the satisfaction that they thought that that we assumed that they do that the ignorant mind thinks that they have so I had to just hit the accelerator and find you know, find new ways of being in new ways of seeing myself and, and new sources of contentment, ease or soccer. So, so yeah, that when when was that that was like back in 2008 2009, something like that. I was in that period for a couple of years. And after that, it was like practice and the and the path of transformation liberation was became the main sort of, you know, the main thrust of my life and also then became a kind of spiritual quest of service as well. And that's what really ultimately gives you liberation. The I mentioned, really trying to be okay, really trying to be happy, from the time when I was unhappy teenager, and that, you know, that orientation, combined with wisdom and practices can make you can make you happy, to an extent but what's what I found, while you're still focused on me, and my happiness, and what I can do to make me feel better. You're still stuck within a certain paradigm, which will limit your actual happiness and it is living for service Thinking for the benefit of others and letting go of that sense of like, what do I need to be okay? Or happy or safe? And think more about what other people need to be okay, happy and safe suddenly, actually, that gets to a whole new level of well being. That isn't possible before. And that yeah, that dark night, I guess, was the thing that brought me from one phase to the next.

Sylvie Barbier  30:27

Like, a lot of the things you say, you know, we understand them, maybe intellectually, and it's a whole other thing to discover them for oneself. You know, the distinction of like, oh, a greater level of actually even joy is in service, most spiritual tradition, talk about service. And was there in this in this kind of transition and path of transitioning? And I guess you're still on your path, you know, because we're, we're live wuzhou. So Mo, one way I found very fascinating is that there was like a first version of that journey as a teenager of like, I'm unhappy, I'm going to change myself, and a second version upgraded version of like, Oh, I'm on the happy, I also need to change myself, let's push the accelerator to like, go there. And why can maybe why I'm asking you this question is like maybe sometime in my path, I I sense that I'm in this in between, I still have lots of things from the old world and my old habit, I'm also going through something new and exciting. And there's very many moments where the old one is still clinging, you know, it does not want to let go and is trying to find that that. And I know that sometimes if I repressed that part too much, don't listen to it, it's almost backlash, you're almost like stunted the progress because it didn't feel safe enough to be able to let go. And I'd love to hear a little bit like maybe that that's a bit more of a granular view into your transformational journey. Yes, if you had encountered these moments, and what what practices what, what did you find helpful in, in being able to can continue further down the path when there was maybe moments of doubts?

Jamie Bristow 32:37

So if I understand the question correctly, it's when there are moments when you're feeling like some kind of phase shift is necessary, or if there's a kind of block or feeling stuck, and we really need to sort of like, you know, break on through to a new, a new phase, or is that what what do we do? And that is that, yes, it's

Sylvie Barbier  33:03

a little bit where you say is like, we're actually also experiencing that collectively, the old world is dying, the new world is not born yet. And there's a like, there's moments of tension of like, between these two worlds, and how, and I guess, you know, like, when you hit the accelerator, they must be a thief, you know, to hit the accelerator, you must have a form, that it will lead you to something better than the old world. And yeah, just love to kind of maybe understand more your relationship to, to this to your faith in the way

Jamie Bristow 33:43

Yeah, faith is faith is a great word. And, you know, as I mentioned earlier, faith isn't a word that I was comfortable with growing up. It's not certainly not a word that we had in our family. And it's taken me a bit of a real journey with words like that, you know, faith, sacredness, even divinity. Faith for me, means many different things. And one is the faith in the path of faith that yeah, investment in this kind of work will be rewarded, that it's worth the effort. And faith grows over time. And it's both faith in the practices and kind of faith in a foundational goodness of the human spirit. That actually clearing away the obstacles to that basic goodness. And moving towards sort of freedom and allowing that basic goodness to do Have a kind of creative force in your life will be beneficial to you and, and others. And then there are other sorts of faith that are more to do with sort of ideas about what's going on here in this in this sort of crazy existence.

Sylvie Barbier  35:18

I think he put it so brilliantly, because I also strongly sense that to produce new world to be born, it requires an act of faith, to have faith in humanity, ultimately, something nothing, then we need to nourish. And so yeah, I

Jamie Bristow 35:43

and I offer this as kind of travel notes from, from the end from the edge of edge of the known psychic universe. As a Psychonaut, you know, I've done a lot of practice in a lot of different approaches, and have strong reason to believe in this in this sort of principle of basic goodness, which is part of somebody's traditions, that this is one of the main principles. And but and rather than just holding that as a nice idea, or as a principle of faith, I have strong evidence now, to believe it strongly. And I say that just as a ray of hope, really, that that? Well, the Buddhist path is both deeply cynical and also optimistic in that way. It also teaches us that we have fundamental ignorance is like I said before, that we're kind of born, we're born into like, seeing things in the wrong way, perhaps because it helps us to propagate our genes. So we kind of evolved into these, these ways of saying that we can unpick that that ignorance and unfortunately, that ignorance drives our greed and our hatred and our anger etc. And and, and all the things that make our lives. So our world so volatile, and injust and unsustainable. So that's the cynical bit, I guess, that we are all of us, implicated in the problems of the world, because we're all carrying this legacy and tendency towards what we call greed and aversion or the the desire to grab what you want, and push away what you don't want down the rest. And, yeah, I've gone off track a little bit here. But like, going back to the original, original reason I sort of mentioned faith as a really good word is that faith is important to make a practice deeper and more committed. And you can't expect yourself to do an hour's meditation a day, if you don't really feel in the bones, that is worth your time. And that's why starting out small and not stressing yourself out, doing five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes. And getting up to the point where, you know, if I I find for me an hour and 15 minutes in the morning is is absolutely worth it and about about at that point in, I feel like it's time to get up. And that I got so much I want to do with my day got so many conflicting priorities, and work projects I desperately want to do. But still, it's worth doing that hour and a quarter. Even though I could be using that that time for some other thing. It's not so much about me feeling well and happy because it does have that. But I'm so much more productive and less likely to make mistakes. You know, it saves time in the long run, and more skillful in relationship I listen better, you know, I respond in a more sort of aligned and creative way, etc, etc. But the faith that I need in order to be able to do that has been has been one of the things that has been developed over 22 years of practice. And we kind of just need to develop that faith along with all the other dimensions of development that come with such a path. And so, so yeah, what happens when our faith is tested and when and we're not sure. You know, how do we break through to that next next jump? You know what,

Sylvie Barbier  39:47

I think the funny thing is, in a way of being that hearing you I got the answers when I since I wouldn't want to have doubt you need. You need a sangha. Oh In your faith, you need a sangha. To remind you to have faith.

Jamie Bristow 40:04

Yeah. Yeah. So Sangha, you know, the I guess you could call it sort of the word for spiritual community in, in ancient Indian languages, like pioneer in Sanskrit, at least, is being adopted in Western society, because we don't really have a word that quite fits that. I mean, I guess, spiritual community is close. And the kind of definition of it, or one poetic way of describing it, that I that I really love is those who sing your song back to you when you have forgotten it. And the ways in which you get lost, or won gets lost on the path, become subtler over time, you know, early on, and like I would I had binge on Buddhism as I would describe it. So I'd like do Buddhism for a bit, you know, like, get into the phosphine, do some practice or whatever. And then I completely go off the rails, and completely forget about it. And do you know, like, I say, going back to the old refuges, you know, the partying or the whatever. Not partying is bad, of course, and again, but like, the ways in which I got lost were quite dramatic, and obvious. The ways I get lost now, I'm much subtler, you wouldn't necessarily see them from the outside, but I still get lost. And, you know, the, the spiritual world is littered with scandals, where teachers, usually because they're isolated by being put on a pedestal, well above the rest of the spiritual community, then commit some kind of act of scandal and sews. They get lost too. And I think actually, it's the separation from the Sangha, because of their kind of removal and, and sort of like raising up above and away from that spiritual community. They haven't got. And people don't feel they can sing the song back to them. Or they didn't ask for it or have ways of doing that. That's where problems come in. So like, actually, they're not subtle ways. Often, they're quite dramatic ways people get get lost and caused problems. But for me, anyway. Yeah, I still, I still need to hear that song. Sometimes.

Sylvie Barbier  42:38

Thank you so much for it's such beautiful sharing. And so authentic a, I hope the audience will get as much as I did. And yeah, any maybe last question is like any book that has maybe changed your life that you recommend or open, you know, blown your mind in some ways that you recommend for our audience to read?

Jamie Bristow 43:07

Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a real classic, often recommended and was important to me at a particular time. And that that's Jack cornfields book, a path with heart. So for someone kind of orienting towards the path, I've been sketching a little bit, who maybe have done a little bit of meditation and, you know, wants to understand what deeper practice might entail and, and encouragement in that direction. It's a lovely book, it's not a meditation manual, it's much more about you know, the life of a spiritual practitioner really. And, and for me, it helped me through that that dark night period. Actually, an additional mentioned to a controversially titled book called Mastering the core teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram, which which also talks about that this dark night thing so if anyone that's, you know, that resonates with them, I'd recommend checking out that book, although it's to have some issues but yeah, I think I think that's

Sylvie Barbier  44:24

I think that's, that's yeah, thank you so much. I feel I could keep going on and we are at time

Jamie Bristow 44:35

and I just plug my own report reconnection meeting the climate crisis inside out again, because if you're interested in in Yeah, the the reasons why this, these practices are important for the future of our world that I think

Sylvie Barbier  44:53

should help and it's a real privilege to to get to know you and because once you're on the path and you know there's other people also on the path, it makes walking this path much more easier and sweeter. And I said, Yeah, well, well, thank you everybody for listening and we'll hear from you again. Thank you